Summary - What Lamanites wore in winter:
of Mormon does not say that Lamanite warriors fought nearly
naked year round. There is no instance recorded in the Book of Mormon of Lamanites going bare-skin in a month corresponding to winter of the
Israelite Calendar. The claim that Lamanite warriors fought bare and exposed
all year, is a straw man argument foisted by tropical setting
devotees (including some Mormon tour guides) in an effort to attack the
land setting set forth in LDS scripture - the same setting which places the land Cumorah
in western New York - not southern Mexico.
(LDS Doctrine and Covenants 10:49-51;
Book of Mormon records an attack made by Lamanites in a winter
month (the 11th month)! But, it is no coincidence that during this attempt the Lamanites wore
“garments of skins, yea very thick garments to cover their nakedness.”
months follow the same seasons as biblical months:
Nephites could not have kept the Law of Moses as they did “in all things” in
Central or South America. Gentile minded
Mormons do not seem to grasp this, or want to. Some seem to think that
because the Jewish people have settled in various places throughout the
globe that this means the LORD could have settled the Nephites in tropical
jungles subject to two seasons year round. They (as Christians in general)
are not very familiar with many important details of Law.
Yes, Jews keep ancient holidays and traditions as best they can in
a variety of climates, but this does not mean they keep all of the Priesthood and
Temple ordinances of the Law of Moses. Not even the children of Israel, wandering
in the wilderness, observed all of the Law until they settled in the
Promised Land. This is why the LORD kept repeating to them “when ye shall
come into the land…”
35:10-11) Moses told them beforehand all the things that were expected of
them when they got established in the
land of Canaan.
Likewise, the blessed Nephites didn’t just obey some of the Law (as do modern Jews,
scattered without a temple and an organized priesthood), faithful Nephites and converted Lamanites “strictly” kept the Law “in all
(2 Nephi 5:10,
Nephites were given Melchizedek Priesthood to perform all of the rites and
ordinances of the Law. The fact that an LDS branch may have no Aaronic
Priesthood, doesn’t mean the branch members forgo the ordinance of the Sacrament.
By the way, did you know that according to Elder Bruce R. McConkie, Aaron was initially given the Melchizedek
Priesthood? He later served in a capacity equivalent to what is now called
the Presiding Bishop of the Church. (AARON,
Mormon Doctrine, pg. 9)
commanded all Israel
to start the year in the spring of the Northern Hemisphere called the month
of the “aviv” or “Abib” (KJV).
There is no evidence that faithful Israelites in their covenant lands, kept
any other monthly calendar than the one the Almighty revealed to his
servants Moses and
Aaron. You cannot “strictly” keep the Law of Moses in “all things”
and not keep the divine calendar. The Israelite Calendar is based in the
temperate Northern Hemisphere. The Book of Mormon and the Bible combine to
confound false doctrines, including Gentile minded ideas about so called
"Book of Mormon Geography".
(2 Nephi 3:12-13)
To GOD and Israelites, the scriptural subject is really about covenant lands.
When we read in
3 Nephi 4:7,
11 about the armies of Giddianhi the
robber going up to battle against the Nephites in the “sixth month”,
we should realize that it was in the same season of the Northern Hemisphere
(end of summer, beginning of autumn) as the biblical “sixth month”.
Luke 1:26) This of course is why both the
Bible and the Book of Mormon agree that the Savior died in the “first
month” – the springtime month of Passover.
(3 Nephi 8:5)
follows is based on an actual e-mail exchange between “Coon” (כּוּן,
Hebrew for correct, right, firmly established) and
someone (a brother) we’ll politely call “Tex”,
who is eager to get his book published and selling in Mormon book stores:
Coon: …Now about cold weather and battles. Yep, scripture indicates there
really were more than two seasons
Alma 46:40), “driven
snow” and destructive “hail” in the land of Nephi.
Helaman 5:12) Don’t forget, Nephi was writing to the
understanding of generations of his own people in America when he engraved
the non-biblical but familiar expression “whiteness of the driven snow”
- describing the visionary Tree of Life.
(1 Nephi 11:8;
19:1-5) As for the
expression, “heat of the day” – it’s a biblical expression
pertaining to Israel’s
1 Samuel 11:11,
2 Samuel 4:5,
Matthew 20:12) - but why go over that again. Except to say it’s worth looking into
recorded highs and lows for western NY, not just average seasonal
temperatures. You might be surprised how high the heat index can get in the
Speaking of the weather, I think we have just witnessed an example
of the destructive “east wind” that the Book of Mormon mentions –
blowing from the east or northeast!
(Mosiah 7:31) In principal Book of
Mormon lands, the wind usually blows from the west - off
Lake Erie - “the west sea”. The more destructive wind
comes from the east coast.
The only Book of Mormon battle I know of that was executed in the winter (the 11th
month of the Israelite
Nephite calendar) was one in which the Lamanites
wore very thick skins to cover their nakedness!!! Do you think there could
be a hint here – just maybe?
Really, it’s ok to acknowledge that
“thick clothing” served
both for protection in
(Alma 43:19) and from the elements, especially in winter. Don't
forget, chief captain Moroni wore a
I believe the climate of true Book of Mormon lands is temperate not
tropical. The climate of the
of Israel is temperate. Israel
experiences a cold season or “winter”.
(ST John 10:22-23) I believe true Book of
Mormon lands are right where scripture says they are - in lands presently
occupied by the United
States of America.
(1 Nephi 13:14-20,
2 Nephi 10:10-14,
LDS Doctrine and Covenants 10:49-51;
believe the Lamanites experienced a cold season. But you say you’re not
Ok - given the fact that Nephite months are Israelite months, show
me a battle with naked Lamanites in an Israelite winter month …show me
scripture. …I ask that you hit me with your best scriptural references
showing a battle taking place during a winter month … i.e. the 9th,
10th or 11th month.
Yes, I believe that attacks took place from time to time in the cold
months, like the 11th month when the Lamanites wore skins and
“very thick garments”.
6) We don’t have to talk about that
one again unless you want to. Hit me with something new! Find for me a
reference to a battle in the 9th, 10th or 11th
month in which the Lamanites are described as bare skinned and nearly naked!
Tex: The next best times I have are during
Captain Moroni’s battles. The
first is when he sends his reply back to Pahoran and Pahoran says to bring a
few men and help him retake Zarahemla.
Yes, in the 30th year of the judges, Pahoran makes
an urgent request for Moroni
to come to his aid “speedily”, gathering what forces he can to
go “speedily” against the men of the traitor Pachus.
17) There was
not a lot of time lost here!
(northward from Zarahemla) was on the order of a day’s march from several of
the cities in the southeastern quarter of the land.
The span of the Bountiful - Zarahemla line
was only about a day’s journey from the “west sea” to the east.
(Helaman 4:5-7) This gives us an idea of the scale of these lands. These are
not great distances from a modern perspective.
camp was near the cities of the eastern borders, not very distant from
Zarahemla, when he received correspondences in the 30th year of
the judges. During the ending of the 29th year (end of winter,
beginning of spring) Moroni
made preparation to attack the city of
on the eastern borders.
55:33-35) Moroni (near the cities of the eastern
borders) received an epistle from Helaman (positioned in the southwestern
quarter) in the spring of the 30th year.
Tex: By the time he [Moroni]
arrives in Gideon and joins forces with Pahoran, it is the middle of the
Coon: There is no statement in scripture indicating that Moroni and Pahoran joined
forces in the middle of the year.
(Alma 62:6) The ending of the year is specified in
Tex: They [Moroni
and Pahoran] retake Zarahemla,
Coon: The retaking of Zarahemla occurred in the end of the 30th
year, which would be the end of winter or start of spring, that is, the 12th
month according to the Mosaic Calendar which the Nephites and converted
Lamanites “strictly” observed.
then they [Moroni and Pahoran] march
on to Nephihah, take it without the loss of Nephite life, then they start to
attack the other captured cities.
Coon: The city of Nephihah
was retaken in the commencement of the 31rst year – in the spring!
At the same time, Teancum and Lehi start moving down from
Coon: It’s questionable whether it’s “down” from Bountiful! Bountiful is
Zarahemla. The southeastern quarter of the land is at higher elevation
compared to Zarahemla. The cities near the “east sea” (could be a
lake in the elevated southeastern quarter of the land) were not far from the
head of the river Sidon and Manti – which were at higher elevation compared
Moroni and Teancum got positioned near the city of Mulek;
which was technically in the borders of the Lamanite land of Nephi.
Mulek, in the land of Nephi, was only a night’s march from northern Bountiful.
The fortified city of Mulek was near the body of water called the
50:13) Teancum’s “retreat down by the seashore, northward” makes
perfect sense. Teancum was retreating down by the shore of the “yam” (יָם,
“sea” or “lake”) or chain of lakes, towards
which was northward and at lower elevation.
27) The west and east seas of the land of Israel
are inland seas. The biblical “east sea” is really a lake.
Can you show me where it says Lehi came from the city of Gid? [This is not in
scripture – “Tex” apologized!]
Tex: By the end of the year,
they have pushed all of the Lamanite armies into Moroni.
Coon: The ending of the year is specifically mentioned for the battle in
the land of Moroni.
39) This took place in the early
spring, just before the new-year!
Tex: Teancum sneaks into the Lamanite camp
and kills Ammoron and is killed himself.
This is the last day of the year.
Coon: Again, the last of the year according to the Mosaic Calendar occurs
in the spring.
Tex: According to the narrative, Moroni sends his first letter at the start of
the 31st year and the year ends with Teancum and Ammoron’s deaths.
Coon: There is no mention of
sending a letter, certainly not his first letter, in the start of the 31st
sent an epistle to Pahoran in the 30th year.
3) Indeed there was fighting at the
end of the 31st year – in the spring!!!
Tex: There is no let up in fighting after
the taking of Nephihah.
Coon: It can be deduced that there was war in the beginning of the year
(in the spring) and at the end of the year (in the spring), and during other
months of the year, but which other months are not specified! If there were
some conflicts and maneuvers going on during autumn and colder months, even
this would not have been impossible!
Sister Olive [who
“Tex” tries to criticize] has investigated the history of Iroquois battles in New York.
instance Champlain and the French in New York, University of the
State of New York, State Education Dep., Albany, 1959, pp. 24-25)
Sister Olive found it well documented that native peoples in the New England area sometimes
wore little clothing even in colder seasons. Even so,
there is no mention in the Book of Mormon of bare-skin Lamanites fighting in
months that would correspond to winter, and there is no explicit mention of
any fighting in winter during the 31st year!!!
Tex: The other is when Helaman and his
2,000 warriors are waiting for supplies.
The first arrives in the beginning of the year,
Coon: Again, the first of the ordained Mosaic year occurs in the spring
of the Northern Hemisphere.
It might appear that Helaman marched with his “stripling
soldiers” to the southern quarter of the land by the “west sea”
in the end of the 28th year of the judges.
This is not correct.
Helaman actually marched to the south western quarter in the 26th
year of the Judges.
commentary on the people of Ammon in
Alma 53:10-22 is a departure from the chronological events recorded in the
chapter. The end of the 28th year leaves off with Moroni making no more attempts to battle with
the Lamanites that year.
The Hebrew word translated “stripling”
(1 Samuel 17:56) is
and it means by implication “youth” or “young man”. The word “alem” may be
related to a root meaning “conceal, or “veil” – “keep out of sight”.
Despite popular depictions, there is nothing in the word
“stripling” that connotes bare skinned youth.
Helaman’s army of “young men”, were supplied with “plenty
of provisions” and additional men in the “commencement” of the 29th
year – in the spring!
Tex: then later that year, they take
Coon: Yes, Cumeni was taken “soon” after Helaman’s army received
provisions – in the spring.
Helaman captured supplies and sent them to “Judea” (a name, by the
way, appearing in pre-exilic Hebrew on the Tennessee mound tablet).
He sent prisoners “down” (northward) to Zarahemla. Having taken
“numerous” prisoners, there total provisions soon became “not any
more than sufficient” for their own people.
Tex: and then they had to wait many more
months for supplies. Finally they receive 2,000 more soldiers with supplies
and take the city Manti.
Coon: Note that Helaman “waited” for supplies in the 29th
year after taking Cumeni in the spring.
6) What month the supplies and reinforcements arrived in is not
(Alma 58:8) Note that a
very speedy day’s march northward, from Helaman’s position near
brought pursuing Lamanite armies frightfully close to Zarahemla.
19-25) These lands are not spread
over hundreds of miles!
Tex: The Lamanites flee the western front
by the end of that year.
Coon: There is scriptural indication that Manti was taken in “the
latter end” of the 29th year – in the spring or end of
on the southern border which separates the land
of Zarahemla from the more elevated land of Nephi to the south. Helaman began his
campaigns in the southwestern region by the “west sea”, but
apparently moved inland along the southern border. With divine help and
strategy, they ended up retaking Manti, which is not far from the head of
the river Sidon, and from palisade
cities near the “east sea”.
22:27) Lamanites fled from Helaman’s vicinity to the not too distant
“land of Nephi”,
but we also learn that Lamanites compelled to flee from the land of Manti
came over and helped attack the not too distant city of Nephihah, which was near the “east sea”.
Tex: Again showing battles all year long.
Coon: Your statement above is over generalized – a hand wave argument
really! There was the taking of Cumeni in the spring, followed by a
battle with Lamanites in which Gid returned “in season” (a day after
being sent) to save Helaman.
(Alma 57:17) Then there was a period of “maintaining” and waiting “many
months” for supplies – with no major battle. When Manti was retaken, it
was near “the latter end” of the 29th year – the end of
winter or early part of spring. Again, no mention of bare skin soldiers
going to war in winter months!
Tex: Also … the battle of Ammonihah was in
January or February, with the death of the 1,005 Anti-Nephi-Lehis a few
weeks to a month before. Antipus
was killed in either March or April.
Coon: At Ammonihah, sometime after the 9th year of the judges,
Alma and Amulek were denied food, water, stripped of their clothes (as a
form of humiliation and torture), bound and confined in prison during the
winter (Hebrew 10th month). They had thus been made to suffer
hunger, thirst, and exposure for “many days”.
We don’t know how cold it got in their prison. The highs and lows in
western NY during the winter span tolerably cool days to very frigid days.
In general, the winters during the Archaic and cooler
Woodland period were milder than present.
(William A. Ritchie,
Archaeology of New York State.
p. 32) Phyllis Olive found this out by doing
her home work!
Ammonihah was first attacked and completely destroyed by the
Lamanites in the 5th day of the 2nd month in the 11th
(Alma 16:1-2) This was one day in the spring, sometime between Pesah
Shavuot (Pentacost), according to the calendar God commanded all Israel to observe. The people of
Anti-Nephi-Lehi had therefore likely been massacred earlier that spring.
Finally, the rebuilt and refortified city of Ammonihah was attacked
by an army of Lamanites in the winter (the 11th
month according to the divine calendar,
Alma 49:1) But unlike the lack of
protection that characterized their dress at other times (i.e. spring,
summer and autumn months,
37), this time the attacking
Lamanites wore “garments of skins, yea, very thick garments to cover
Had the attack been during the humid summer or
springtime “heat of the day” (a biblical expression, remember,
meaning hottest part of the day in a temperate warm weather climate) the Lamanites would
probably have found the heavy garments of skins sweltering and
The Lamanite attack on Ammonihah in the winter
month) was probably intended to be a surprise attack.
Antipus “had fallen by the sword” in the early fall, more
precisely, in the 7th month
(Alma 56:42-51), just days before the final harvest celebration of Sukkot
(Fall Harvest - Feast of Tabernacles, Huts or Wigwams).
“Book of Mormon”
[“Tex” has made up his own
calendar. That's why he says Antipus was killed in either
“March or April”
Tex: So while no dates are given for
Captain Moroni’s battles, at least in two consecutive years, the scriptures
indicate that the battles were fought all year long.
Coon: Battles were clearly not fought every day or even every month.
Battles tended to occur in the warmer months – in the spring particularly.
We see that there were reoccurring “seasons of serious war” in the
American Promised Land
(Omni 1:3), comparable to times of war in the
biblical Promised Land.
(2 Samuel 11:1)
No dates, no naked soldiers in the 9th, 10th
or 11th months, no real argument!
The “cold weather” fallacy foisted by tropical setting
propagandists smacks of the following illogic:
The Bible says that Nebuchadnezzar besieged Jerusalem in the 10th month, which
is a cold, wet winter month in the temperate Northern Hemisphere.
(Jeremiah 39:1) Surely Nebuchadnezzar would not have besieged
in the cold, wet winter; therefore
must be in tropical Africa. The
must be the great western sea mentioned in the Bible. The
“east sea”, east of
(Joel 2:20), must be the Indian Ocean.
Do you find this argument compelling? I assure you
is not in Africa.
Where is the
Right where “the word of the Lord” says it is.
(LDS Doctrine and Covenants 127:10;
128:20) Other Book of Mormon lands in
cannot possibly be thousands of miles distant!
Relative to Cumorah “in a
land of many waters, rivers, and fountains [waterfalls]”
Lake region), the large northern
“waters of Ripliancum” are easily identified as
Lake Iroquois (Ontario).
The Book of Mormon “sea west” from where the people spread after a
time of drought
(Helaman 11:17-20), fits the freshwater Great Lake Erie.
Jaredites in the land northward traveled eastward to the region of Cumorah.
14:26) Thus, the
land of Cumorah was not immediately north of
“the narrow neck of land”
as some erroneously suppose - it was eastward!
small neck of land"
the Batavia Moraine. This small land-bridge is known to non-Mormon geologists who have
studied the ancient feature. (Natel,
Heidi Harlene, Proglacial Sedimentology and Paleoecology of the Tonawanda Basin,
Western New York: Implications for a Late
Wisconsinian Progalcial Environment, Master’s Thesis, State
University of New York, College at Onconta, figure 1a, pg. 2)
The “narrow pass”, which had water on “the
west and on the east” of it, adjoined the land
“called Desolation by the Nephites”.
The “narrow pass” or Batavia Moraine
passed though ancient Lake Tonawanda (a northern arm of ancient Lake Erie).
Sister Olive cites non-Mormon scholars who
conclude that Lake Tonawanda persisted several centuries into the Common
(Phyllis Carol Olive, We are Israel - The American
Indians and the Book of Mormon, DVD
In fact, Lake Tonawanda is not entirely gone, but exists today as
marshlands. A modern road has been paved on top of the Batavia Moraine where
it passes through wetlands.
It’s all there in a prophetic land of liberty that became freed in the latter-days “from all other
A more distant land northward with “large bodies of water and many
rivers”, extending hundreds of miles to the north, describes Canada.
A large portion of the northern erets (אֶרֶץ, translated “earth” or “land”) we
Ontario, is truly bordered in each of the cardinal
directions by inland seas, exactly as the Book of Mormon describes.
Thus we see that unlike Mexico, which is open on the north,
“the furthermost parts of the land northward”, that
is, the true Book of Mormon “northern most part of the land” is
limited by “large bodies of water and many
(3 Nephi 4:23;
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